This episode of astronomy cast is brought to you bye swing burn astronomy online the world longest running online astronomy degree program this it astronomy dot s w i n died at u dot eighty for more information. Hundred yeah episode two hundred knowing someone over twenty ninth two thousand exotic way was running accounts for real facts three straight through because most we help you understand only what we know what how we normally known. My name is freezer team i'm publisher university and with me is doctor family here professor. The southern illinois university ever i don't know how you doing. I'm doing well how are you doing frasier doing great so you're back safe and sound from term australia and other trips i i am back and now i'm getting ready to leave to go to the american to your physical union meeting. Well hopefully i'll get to see some of that people out in the audience but i have to admit i'm gonna be trapped inside the conference center in on a able to leave so. Yeah exactly and and i was uh recently on the skeptics god universe as a special guest uh when they did you watch a movie in vancouver and i got to handle the science or fiction better one room israel for you so people sort. Ah oh no we don't like to cover news on the story to us but sometimes was a new stories it's so interesting complicated and rapidly unfolding. It happens are covered area that we haven't really talk much about uh that we just got a point so today we thought we covered the discovery of arsenic based life. And exotic forms of life in general maybe we need to read the foreign or definition of life. Or do we just got introduced to some distant cousins. Believe this is not that interesting at all. No i get the topic. This is changed everything always doesn't change much no no not really. If you wish up to this discovery and then all of the skepticism and. Counter argument afterwards it's it's it's fun to go through this process i mean i i watch i knew often and full though we've done so many stories on universe today. But i knew how it's going to unfold every time what nasa's got a big so now so i had uh big meeting where they were gonna just discover something's. Very very important and speculation ran rampant on the unit or but what that thing was going to be. And discovery was that it is b leave it by a group of researchers with confirmation oh waiting from other researchers. That there is a bacteria from a lake in california and it never surprises me when aliens come from california that that um. This particular bacteria is capable of replacing fast fritz india name with arsenic. Which is kinda cool. The bacteria not to be space alien was many typical this the single cells bacteria. To the environment is very important rights cal right it's california wait. Some strange well california well it's more something strange about this particular lake it with locked off from having freshwater coming into it a number of years ago. And so all of the nasty he's in the lake have been able to get down turned and turned dancer as you waters become more concentrated to kind of thank. It's the dead sea of arsenic it's just a very arsenic rich lake mon a lake in california. You know doesn't have the the combinations of of life the the the basic building blocks of life that we understand but you might find you know you know regular like you've got nice clean water you've got nutrients you've got some more each. You've got a link to what it says would be poisonous to mostly forms yeah that that whole arsenic and laced thing um it's people are long known for dying sudden that's when uh enriched with arsenic you might say. But now it so they went looking specifically to see if they could find in this arsenic rich environment. It critter capable of making this particular substitute shin and this is actually something that wasn't just done on a wild when. But rather there there was a study done a number of years ago called the limits of organic life and planetary systems it was a large committee put together by the national research council to try and figure out well. Okay so we're trying to figure out is there a late in life elsewhere in the universe where do we go looking for this potentially only in life. And they came out with a bunch of specific recommendations i wonder if they're specific recommendations wife and here i'm calling from the paper. To search for life that can extract essential nutrients such as buster's iron and other metals from rock such as pie right and appetite i'm mitch pronouncing the jane but then they wanted to figure out if those key minerals. Uh it could be used it as key nutrients where they also said to search for organisms environments that are limited including limits and vice versa and iron. Such that these organisms can substitute these other elements such as arsenic for fast for us so it the the the study actually recommended find critters that make the steps you should have arsenic for faster so they were specifically looking. For something based on a recommendation made by the wise is people in the field faster balaji we hope. Uhhuh of that paper. She run astronomy cast because you know we propose you're gonna talk to about news but but we actually got interviewed for skip the callie oh it was a couple of years ago actually enjoy actually women for about an hour which will be your bo- talking about a bogus information. It is what really brings things around as quick me because you now gotcha. Back then the recommendation to the scientists will look for these environments where various pieces of the puzzle are restricted. And see if wife has found a way to to deal with that know there's more implications who was original study talking about. What how you could replace the job you know what should have carbon basically from could you have and then you what other mold tools will do the trick more when you least life forms and you know always different exotic form social colon etcetera. Down in this is one of those those things with now so the the do a pretty good job of of. I'm going forward in a very deliberate manner if you look at the research. Under searching for life on mars hold the same process faithfully. You know they're looking for evidence of past waters are looking for evidence of current water looking for evidence oh biologically produce compounds you know they're they're inching towards life you know what do you that the when the scientific evidence is found. It's it's very good and and it's all goes back to the the idea of extraordinary things require extraordinary evidence and you. The search for non trust real based life it is one of those things that when it finally found that it's going to be the most controversial claim ever made in science. It it less of course like some little green were great pick your color do comes and talks to us directly and no one really think that's had going to be how we find life it's going to be via. A signal is going to be the an atmospheric signature it's gonna be v as some in direct action. And so we're working on trying to figure out well how do we make that in direct detection locally with bacteria didn't exist on other planets where do we look what to look for and then how do we look outside of our solar system. No. Like on this but can you explain in more detail exactly what this little critters during. So. With within our body human beings require fussy uh one foster adam and for oxygen adams forming a molecule for a whole lot of different stuff uh any of you who ever took high school advanced placement biology got to. Memorized the at d p cycle within the body which includes thoughts faith is one of the major constituents. Of of the process and. One of the backbone for me d. d. and acknowledge all that twisted he likes that that's fine who each of us are genetically. One of the backbone performing that molecule is five state. Now. The reason people talk about making a substitute shin with arsenic is if you pull out your periodic table or google one which is what i did there's a really good wanna w w w dot p table dot com. Uh horrible name excellent periodic table. And when you look down the columns. The the reason is that the periodic table has all the strange gaps that it does the first read only has hide usually you only in the next row. Um a again has a limited number of things is two things in the last six things on the right that pattern of the periodic table is actually belt on the pattern of orbiting electronics. So in high addition henley them you only have two possibilities of where to stick electronic so you have. These two items then with the each successive movement down the list you add more possibilities for these electronics. And each column in the periodic table represents how many gaps are list left in the outer most. Work at all the outer most where that electronics can live with that. So. When you're looking at oxygen when you're looking at full for when you're looking at school in d m tool or him alone the them all of these different elements they just happen make up calling sixteen. They all have six select tribes living happily out in or out or most or if it'll show and they can stick to more out there. Eight yeah. Well it this particular work it'll always goes and rings at eight. And and so with the six happily living out elect tried in that particular shall. The six electronic they're just waiting to bond with something else and just waiting on something else to come along and bond with them. There the more stealing from somebody but took to me because that that odor that ring be balanced right so when when we're looking at fox for us. And that out or most level it it has five elect tried out there and then if you go next down the list to arsenic. Again you have five in that last or but all. So the idea is both of them are able able to form a similar molecule so with thoughts state you have. Prosperous and for oxygen to. Then they they also formed in the next that they thought said these particular critters that they got from on a lake they created a molecule that was instead arsenic and forks oxygen. Rice was almost like a puzzle piece that that both foster's and arsenic have the same puzzle piece. So they could connect oxygen exactly the same one right we help we stay home. Now the thing is well well chemistry something i last took in tenth grade having tested out of it i have taken lots of. Quantum mechanics and physical chemistry which avoids a lot of the types of things that you worry about with biological spot what it does talk about is bonding angles the probability that things exist how they come together. And or one of the things that does change is the lengths of the bonds and these molecule see the exact geometry at how they form. It's just delayed leave different when you're forming it with arsenic so it it's a similar. Crater i s somewhere molecule rather. Right it's not absolutely identical. And the question is can that. Lately re scaled molecule get forced to buckle itself and twisted self just a little bit to sit in and replace the fuss eight in these d n a straight. And the initial evidence seems to be yeah. Yeah now there there's been a a a lot of people being vocal they say the least she about this. So is that the reason you have a lot of of people being vocal about this is first of all the time the controversy also you want to prove them wrong because because that's hopefully it's works if someone says something now when you pull holes in what they said if you can't. Now the the other reason that they're doing that is. What they were feeding d.. Bacteria that they were working with was a solved but they did contained trace amounts of sauce state so the question is. Where they make happily metabolize thing using this arsenic replacement molecule or where they simply figuring out how to metabolize just enough. Using these trace trace trace amounts of fox eight and there's life that is known to exist then metabolize is faucet and even lower levels then what existed in this particular salt or maybe it's because you know some kind of blend. So it you know if it's folding it's it's unfolding problem maybe you can you use was much faucet as you camp and then you have to use our six of could be something in between. Right so there's lots of possibilities and one of the things that is all on the list of things that the scientists are going to be doing next. Is figuring out how to damage the d. n. a.. To actually see is the r snack the is some sort of it's not gonna be a direct and then she don't taking like tom scanning microscope to look for our snack but they're going to be looking to to. Most likely use a radioactive i situps of arsenic to trace is the r snake getting used informing the d n and all the kill. So then what um i mean what are the implications i mean i think this is. You know we're still gonna find a was ruined on whether it's really doing is we're not doing this but as we talked about was goes back to this study do the that now i've had done a few years ago. Where they're really taking another look at the whole concept of of what it means to be left out there there many other more tools maybe it was solvent that you can use to make what what appeared arsenal ways to be to relax. Right so the the the question it basically boils down to can. Life. Find a way when everything else goes to pot to still exist. Kansas hesitation dreamed about and star trek actually be made and there there's a number of different substitute shows that we worry about the the one that most people i've heard about as a substitute shin from carbon. Which has for like constant that are michelle to silicon which also has for like trying to out of michelle. And that's good because i think that a lot of people people you know is this carbon you'll north heartbeats place for them on impartially before i form and that's not what's been discovered no this is still card then. Molecules performing most of the structure of the bacteria and it's still carbon based organic life it's just this one. Particular process. That you have a foster it to to arsenic substitute shin instead bodies are filled with all sorts of things you require thoughts for maybe. It'd be cool yours. But but it the the reason that we're pretty sure that life on earth is using carbon an oxygen and i. Well using foster instead of our snack is the the cosmic abundance is of all of these different things here on earth carbon is much more prevalent instantly can. And so it just seems natural that that was. What ended up forming life. No. When it comes to foster's verses arsenic again much more prevalent here on earth than the arsenic. But it's possible that even though because hm cosmic cli- expect the same sources ratios that we see on here it's possible that he has some sort of weird oh process you end up with a planet that has a deficit and one of these particular adams. And wouldn't be it'd be cool if even of these environments where the adams we use our much rare what if life could still find a way to existing those environments those mon a lake since the universe. And there are many and and what now so i did a far as the there many different. Places i mean we used to carbon water. Some because you know some kind of energy source you've got life blocked. Maybe doesn't have to be carbons maybe could be so to maybe could be some other element and in fact you can replace because we're seeing with this you replaced open you know maybe replace some of the different elements to go into the d. n. a. with different elements replacing could. You know foster's with our six. Well the other one that's really important use the actual medium solvent that my wife does is working she for us it's water you're the we're you know bags mostly water but. But that's another one that that could be completely different. And and that's when once it's even more exciting in the context from solar system. Because if we look alot to saturns mean tightened which is what rumor had it this was going to be discovery about if you read some of the rumors. I on tightened instead of having a water cycle there's a nothing cycle where you have. The planet rains nothing there's nothing lakes on the surface and it's a combination of out that low gravity out that low the temperature. Nothing is is able to processed and have all of these different. Functions within the environment to hear your out what's called the triple point for nothing. No. Recently people within within the past ten years working very hard to to redefine what it takes for life and i love that the definition i learned in elementary school is now completely replaced in this thing. Is information it's made it all the way down to the five year olds asking questions events. Now we think that what it takes for life is just like you were saying a solvent you need not necessarily water but anything that will dissolve stuff within it. You need not sunlight that's what we learned in school but instead you need and energy great and we say energy grading because we now know that the thermal dance in the bottom of the ocean consisting likes. And we no longer say it has to be carbon it could be something else we're now much more openminded in our chemistry. So how do these changes. With as you said definition of life how does that change are are sir selections whole system we're or the sorry to starting to look. Well once upon a time we were only willing to spend money searching for life in places where we need liquid water could exist and on the planet mars that's still we're desperately searching for. Where are there places that in reality we be salty water can exist they're seeking brian water on mars um through a lot of theoretical model. But it means that within the solar system on tightened where you have nothing atmosphere um or nothing water cycle you how the potential for life. Uh so we're gonna go look there hopefully we don't know what to see if you're world that might be made outside. But we know there's probably liquid there and there's not enough some like but there's the possibility for geo thermal heating not in fact where the ocean comes from. And said that it someplace else we want to go look for life so here we have something other than water and tightened we have something other than sunlight on your wrote that. And we've opened our eyes to the possibility that life could exist just about anywhere no would you say i'm in a one of the the descriptions of this was that it was it d leans found on earth but it was yeah ideally in life on earth. Again that's really not a good description. No and the problem is it people like to run with things and right sensational listed titles i we've all been guilty of it at one point or another i like not sometimes you know files you've never ever s c censorship. Okay so i assume honey with my titles i admit that i don't think i've ever been sensational is the guy i've just been silly. Uh it which is different and universe today okay fight you guys are gave well. Right feelings. But anyway it it it's easy as a journalist when you're trying to get people to click your link rather than somebody else's linking like do go ahead and see this is josh like star trek looked real. Yeah if you have linux yeah that's being go we take a lot. So eh not there road a perfect leave reasonable press release that said this will affect our search for alien life which is true. But then didn't give either enough information to squash rumors or enough information to give away the result so. It was one of these things i've we're not gonna tell you anything we're saving it to the press release that allowed wild speculation to occur. Ah well do you and you know we absolutely to watch this this unfolded no but you know it's it's fun it's very interesting evolutionary adaptation to hostile environment. But it is definitely no i'm i'm sure that will be able to trista we need it should. Oh to common ancestor with regular life because we don't and i i have to say some of the criticisms being level that this paper are completely reasonable the the concerned it if the d n name only kills where. Actually built with the uh arsenic based not molecular structure they should dissolved much more about the lan water than they are. That that's a reasonable scientific argument but i think other people just sort of like stuck there for it and say that this was science by press release. And fights by press release refers to times when people and this this happens with cold fusion we talked about this before when people put their results out during a press conference without there being a peer reviewed paper already. Accepted for publication just wasn't one of those cases. D scientist wrote a paper. They got as much confirmation and say you how to get to their first round of work they submitted a paper to science it went out for period you they got referees comments back they reacted to the referees comments. Paper was revised it weighs accepted for publication. The day the paper was published with the day to press release so everyone could review all of the results and they they said from the very beginning. This it's preliminary we want our competitors to replicate what we've done and either approve it or show us what we did ron. That's not fine i press release that just science at the edge of what we understand. Real sorry it's perfectly perfectly well don't. Yeah yeah absolutely so so then doesn't have any applications do you think for the search for life in some of the other ways that we sort of for life and we talked about study we talked to vote. The trust real planet finder type mission where you're analyzing the atmosphere's of of distant planets. Doesn't have any implications without you could potentially so it right now one is more interesting ways that we cool it identified not intelligent life but simply life. On another planet is by looking for molecular oxygen within a certain pattern of molecules in handling atmospheres. Molecular oxygen isn't something that likes to exist by itself it just has a tendency to do things like form carbon dioxide in carbon monoxide. So when you have that molecular rocked oxygen signature you probably have allergy or plants or or something else so we just haven't thought us. But the question is. If you can have silicon based life if you can have. Arsenic basically they what sort of metabolism do we have to think about what sorts of chemical prosper racial processes to we have to think about. That might lead to to it different unique signature of life with and then atmosphere and this is for the astra biologists are having a lot of fun. It's trying to figure out what are the different ways to life can restaurant then you could imagine uh some space mission being developed. Which is highly to to discover for you oxygen. In some atmosphere some distant planets but books and doesn't find any atmosphere any any oxygen in in these planets but in fact. If they had just one older models and figure don't every possible chemical outcome and then built that into the telescope then you could say you know no it doesn't have free oxygen oh when it doesn't have. I don't know when you know some kind of messy output it doesn't have ammonia in you know and the atmosphere that's that you could run through this whole checklist then imagine every possible. Uh chemical outcome and really be comprehensive about it were you could say look we found. Children oxide in the atmosphere and i'm not sure that's one of them put yeah something is oh that that would have to be. I sustained by biological i for and so i think this is great because it's really expanding the tools that and giving the the new tells could developers more things to look for. And and it's always good to find ria park burning day that saying life really can't exist anywhere we started from the premise of life is hard it's difficult to get life. No difficult again intelligence is our remaining theory but life itself i. The if if you've never google to the phrase water bear it's it's this little tiny silly looks like an overly leg it got me bear bacteria. That uh more i guess my grip is the correct term my grip that you can launch these suckers on the outside of space craft corporate them around the planet a little while and d or but them through the atmosphere where they get exceedingly higher. And once you're back down or if they're perfectly happy that reproduce and go on being living creatures. It's funny because one of the most just reset the most important scientific discoveries all of possibly old time discovery of life. Other than earth he's being shipped away by the scientific research in other ways with by the time you actually get there you you know. What's his own on mars and well yeah but we kinda knew it was there you. A little bit regarding what provider understanding of what life is will don't really that's surprising and looks like was related to us and places spelling your opal well you know this water this again you know we're expecting uh you it's. Wife is around on another planet well you know we go through resources and with also that from you know from one sold from those sorts of it looks like they're related. But it's almost. It will be not surprising by the time but most important discovery of of new signs ever is made and and what i love about this particular story is. Prior to at launching spacecraft to go look at mars up close arrow just kind of assume the seasonal variations on the surface of mars or at least partially related to plant the animal's life on ours. Or we take a close up look of mars of the space craft let out at the the community wide sigh and or acts let's have and kill off our side of life anywhere in the solar system anywhere in the universe. But that was coming back the hope is coming back stuff i hope springs eternal life springs eternal. Well that's great well thanks a lot pamela and of course if. Thursday anymore really interesting discoveries and she just will will re addressed the topic because in the future. And one more thing as we're taking off we are and then it kept here see here the united states it's very sad and exciting paperwork. Oh i can work for yeah yeah yeah you're looking for a tax deduction it is it is in my job requirement to remind you that we are tax deductible. Uhhuh i would challenge everyone out there that for the year two thousand eleven which is about to start tony twenty dollars eleven. Or at least something that ends in eleven cents so that we know that the review donating if you heard this please. And we we i can't keep paying here stephenson with you donate he's done it please tells. Hold. We're by ourselves and astra your daughter work that works too antivirus stuff alright thanks a lot of town newsweek he pays outside c later this has been astronomy test a weekly backspace journey through the customer journalism transcripts for every episode are available on our website check it out at astronomy cash dot com you can send us any comments questions or p backed info astronomy test dot com weary every email to show the nonprofit educational resource provided by phrase it came suffer family gay we're supported through the kind of nations of listeners like you if you enjoy trying to cast wanna give us a donation helps a favor band with transcript and showing off just click to donate link on the web sites all the nations are tax deductible for u. s. taxpayers' you can support sure for free to write a review for recommended to your friends. 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